gregdek ([info]gregdek) wrote,
@ 2008-03-15 17:44:00
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Spot, none of your semantic jiu jitsu means that MP3 software is *actually* freely redistributable. Saying that "the MP3 codec is open sourced" is a nice attempt at a dodge, but the fact remains that even though *the code* for the MP3 codec may be "open source", the *patent license* is not. Which is why we chose to make this kind of ugly compromise in the first place.

Unless something has changed, this sentence -- "we see it as a way to help inform our users about the perils of software patents in the multimedia space, without preventing them from leveraging free software solutions" -- is misleading. MP3 CODECS ARE NOT FREE SOFTWARE SOLUTIONS. (Again, unless something in the legal landscape has changed, and if it has, let's hear more about that change.)

Which means that someone had to *pay* for those redistribution rights. And who was that? Fedora? Red Hat? No, actually. It was *Fluendo* who paid for those rights, in this case.

So we're basically allowing thousands of users to freeload from Fluendo (thanks guys!), and in return we give Fluendo... what, exactly?

If we're going to basically take the convenience of MP3 that Fluendo provides because we *can*, but then not provide Fluendo with *any* upsell opportunities, then we're basically ripping off Fluendo's good will to make ourselves feel better about our "user experience".

If the Board has decided that they don't want to point to any "non-free software" at all -- which is a fine stance to take, by the way -- then remove Codeina entirely. Either have the courage to say "we don't encourage any non-free software at all," or have the courage to say "we support your right to choose non-free software, so long as you obtain it legally, and here's how." Because the current poor compromise seems to be the worst of both worlds.


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jiu jitsu
(Anonymous)
2008-03-16 02:10 am UTC (link)
Yes the codec is not *actually* freely distributable, in countrys with software patents. For the rest of the world it's as free as any gpl or lgpl piece of code is.
So while i think you have a point, i don't think this is semantic jiu jitsu, it's just what it is.

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Re: jiu jitsu
[info]iquaid
2008-03-16 05:14 am UTC (link)
It's a fair point; one person's free is another person's encumbered. Living in a country where a patent makes an otherwise free piece of software not redistributable is a drag.

We consider being freely redistributable a cornerstone of being free software. Does it have to be freely distributable everywhere to be truly free? None of us are truly free as long as one of us is enslaved?

Greg, I think that's the sticky spot the Board is trying to navigate. A significant portion of the Fedora users and contributors live where a patent-encumbered open source solution is free software for them.

Check out these maps: http://fedoraproject.org/maps/ ... visually, over 50% of the users and contributors are from outside of the United States. Maybe they are in a country where software patents don't affect them (yet). It's a big challenge to figure how to treat those folks in a fair, equitable, and just way.

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Re: jiu jitsu
[info]gregdek
2008-03-16 06:52 am UTC (link)
I guess this is my question:

If we basically say "thanks for writing Codeina for us, Fluendo, but we've decided to cut out the bit that provided any value to you in the first place, thanks for the bandwidth" -- what message does that send?

This question has nothing to do with MP3, per se. The only reason that MP3 matters is because it's a funky corner case. The real question is, how will we treat organizations who provide us with a valuable service?

It seems like we've trod fairly seriously on Fluendo's goodwill here.

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Re: jiu jitsu
[info]bpepple.wordpress.com
2008-03-16 01:47 pm UTC (link)
I totally agree with you that we're treating Fluendo pretty shoddily here, and it seems to be a side of the discussion that has been overlooked.

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Re: jiu jitsu
[info]iquaid
2008-03-16 03:59 pm UTC (link)
> It seems like we've trod fairly seriously on Fluendo's goodwill here.

I understand that. On the other hand, the codeina 'product' as delivered did not match the specs. Oh, darn, did we forget to write those down? Not sure if they were gathered in the first place? That part predates me a bit.

The part where I started to pay attention was Seth showing how codeina reacted in F8 tests. I was surprised and shocked to find that it behaved like a desktop application into a webshop. Where was the user education? Why was it pointing directly at non-free and patent encumbered software?

Lack of communication between Fedora leadership and Fluendo is probably at the core here. We didn't work with the maintainer or Fluendo. We got Bill to patch codeina to provide a bit of up-front text, which is reflected and longer on the CodecBuddy page.

Another mistake we made in there was letting the situation go for Fedora 8, knowing it was sub-optimal and probably a total contradiction to Fedora's mission. At the time, I recall thinking it was too much to get my brain around and too late in the development cycle to do much. It might have been that our only choice was to yank codeina entirely for Fedora 8?

In retrospect, maybe that was the right thing to do, to yank it until it was ready for Fedora. OTOH, that wouldn't have been a great sign to Fluendo either. So, to really fix it in retrospect requires going back two years and writing up a functional spec, then working iteratively with Fluendo on codeina.

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(Anonymous)
2008-03-16 02:37 am UTC (link)
> If the Board has decided that they don't want to point to any "non-free
> software" at all -- which is a fine stance to take, by the way -- then remove
> Codeina entirely.

No further board involvement necessary for this one...Bastien finally decided that it was enough, and has orphaned codeina.

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.
[info]malwkgad
2008-03-16 04:46 am UTC (link)
I agree on this one. It is not fair to use Fluendo's payed patent and leaving them without anything. I believe Fedora should leave the mp3 support anyway. If one wants all the codecs for g-streamer - repos are available which can provide that OR they still can be bought by fluendo if the user feels like it. Fedora should not be involved in this decision. IMO:)

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[info]spot
2008-03-16 05:30 pm UTC (link)
From that perspective, we really should have just told Fluendo "thanks, but no thanks".

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Freedom of choice ?
(Anonymous)
2008-03-18 09:46 pm UTC (link)
I mean, if I do want to use proprietary codecs, which makes me a really mean person and Stallman hates mean people, I should be able to use those "really mean" codecs. I think this is called choice.

I believe that removing support of those codecs in Codeina is a bad move, takes away the user's freedom (of choice).

Please don't hate me. I am just pointing out my opinion.

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Useless, but free?
(Anonymous)
2008-03-24 12:24 pm UTC (link)
What's the idea? Better a non-working computer, than anything using closed software? Are you people really trying to get others into Linux, or just trying to make them run away as fast as possible?

If you cannot play MP3, watch DVDs, open Flash based sites, load drivers for your graphics card, or use wireless with ndiswrapper, what are you left with? A computer, or a dead weight?

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Re: Useless, but free?
(Anonymous)
2008-03-26 09:39 pm UTC (link)
Neither. Fedora Linux. A true GNU/Linux, surpassing in politics Debian (ouch).

Don't people wanting an easy approach just go the Mint, Ubuntu, Gentoo, or Arch approach, where non-FOSS is fine? Fedora, in my experience, makes a great platform for developers and technical power users to do their work, but a poor desktop for Aunt May.

But are those the type of users Fedora really wants? People who wouldn't file a bug report if their lives depended on it? Purely content consumers? People who don't advance Linux, GNU, FOSS, or Fedora? Sticks-in-the-mud?

Remember: great visionaries are the minority.

On topic, I would expect the board to be making an informed choice designed to help shape tomorrows world, not stay with yesterdays. Fedora should *not* condone the use of patent-encumbered software, which their justification seems to indicate they do.

Greg is right that the board's decision is insulting to Fluendo.

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Re: Useless, but free?
(Anonymous)
2008-04-30 01:39 am UTC (link)
From that perspective, we really should have just told Fluendo "thanks, but no thanks".

http://www.1seo1.com

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US Patent laws don't apply to USA's neighbors
(Anonymous)
2008-05-05 01:42 am UTC (link)
I cannot understand why sites in Canada and Mexico, two immediate landtouching neighbors to the USA do not host open source codecs. Without the codecs, we cannot download purchasable MP3 music, as I have yet to see this music offered in OGG format.

I also need to watch certain Adobe compatible flash presentations, and with Fedora, I am blocked from installing a legal flash player. True I went off shore for my multimedia interfaces, but why should it be so hard to provide a set of questions as does UBUNTU? If it is illegal, do not open the following links, and skip over this option.... I would not have to go through hoops to have what I currently can have with UBUNTU or PCLINUXOS.

Is there not a simple question / response that would solve all the problems?


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